Intercooler setup

[fubar andy]

Both runs in those pics look fairly "tall" although i didn't really understand the "long pipe run" pic.

It was really just as an example of instead of having the normal ebay pipe run that we see more commonly running around the engine bay, the “long run” was just some piping straight from the front to the back on the engine. Reducing the amount of time and gasses needed to be pumped/build-up around the system.

Its the overall volume of the pipe run + IC which will effect the lag and throttle response(TR). Small volume will restrict the system, large volume will incresae the lag and TR. You need to find the right size in the middle.
If i understand the whole concept right, its better to have a slightly small diameter pipe run and a slightly larger IC, then vice verca. but thats only my understanding.

Could well be, perhaps someone else could confirm that?
My look was that granted larger diameter pipe may take longer to charge, but that would depend on each individual set-up and the amount of gasses produced by a car. My initial was thinking more along the lines that with a shorter pipe run, it would take less time for it to fully charge up and therefore reduce lag time.

Having said, after all this faffing about with FMIC’s I’ll probably end up sticking with the TMIC. Lets be honest were not going to be needed full power in traffic jams are we?

 

[jpward]

It was really just as an example of instead of having the normal ebay pipe run that we see more commonly running around the engine bay, the “long run” was just some piping straight from the front to the back on the engine. Reducing the amount of time and gasses needed to be pumped/build-up around the system.



Could well be, perhaps someone else could confirm that?
My look was that granted larger diameter pipe may take longer to charge, but that would depend on each individual set-up and the amount of gasses produced by a car. My initial was thinking more along the lines that with a shorter pipe run, it would take less time for it to fully charge up and therefore reduce lag time.

Having said, after all this faffing about with FMIC’s I’ll probably end up sticking with the TMIC. Lets be honest were not going to be needed full power in traffic jams are we?

Some good points posting,

The straighter section pipes is an easy one to understand how it would be more beneficial but I would like to know if anyone knows if the same section of pipe bend of either silicone or alloy flows better? As in design with alloy straights and silicone bends or only silicone bends where you need them would work better?

Another thing to not is with greater diameter piping you reduce pressure and therefore temperature and it is this which makes the ARC's more efficient as there is less friction in the pipes ;-)

The reason our TMIC are indeed quite efficient is due to the fact the end tanks are reversed meaning that the whole core is used by the charge and it is easy to see on some FMIC how the top or bottom half or the core would be flowing more than the other due to the end tanks being directly opposite!

 

[stevepudney]

Some good points posting,

The straighter section pipes is an easy one to understand how it would be more beneficial but I would like to know if anyone knows if the same section of pipe bend of either silicone or alloy flows better? As in design with alloy straights and silicone bends or only silicone bends where you need them would work better?

What !! Can you re write that in English so we can understand it without translation...............just so we are clear ;-)

The reason our TMIC are indeed quite efficient is due to the fact the end tanks are reversed meaning that the whole core is used by the charge and it is easy to see on some FMIC how the top or bottom half or the core would be flowing more than the other due to the end tanks being directly opposite!

Thats why the Skyline coolers are so good as the end tanks are huge and quite triangular, making good use of the whole core.

 

[jpward]

What !! Can you re write that in English so we can understand it without translation...............just so we are clear ;-)





Thats why the Skyline coolers are so good as the end tanks are huge and quite triangular, making good use of the whole core.

For goodness sake Steve can you not read :lol:

Ok is silicone bends better at flowing than an alloy one?

 

[Trip]

Thats why the Skyline coolers are so good as the end tanks are huge and quite triangular, making good use of the whole core.

the ARC TMIC of the skyline GTS is small though.. Never saw of the GTR

 

[Trip]

For goodness sake Steve can you not read :lol:

Ok is silicone bends better at flowing than an alloy one?

:-D :-D

Ideally you would have one run without joints of silicone. But thats almost impossible to do. You can fabricate a nicer "gradual" bend with alloy then the tight 90deg off-the-shelf silicone bends.

for instantce the alloy pipe is 1mm tick you would have a 1mm step on the rim around the joint. But i really doubt it would effect. maybe 0.2bhp

 

[jpward]

:-D :-D

Ideally you would have one run without joints of silicone. But thats almost impossible to do. You can fabricate a nicer "gradual" bend with alloy then the tight 90deg off-the-shelf silicone bends.

for instantce the alloy pipe is 1mm tick you would have a 1mm step on the rim around the joint. But i really doubt it would effect. maybe 0.2bhp

Yes that is what i was thinking perhaps a nice mandrel bent pipe and make sure to put a nice chamfer on the leading edges of the pipes ;-)

 

[fubar andy]

[FONT="Arial]Just out of interested where did you did you get your ARC R33 intercooler from Steve?[/FONT]

...

 

[youngsyp]

However as you say the problem arises when you sit in traffic and then take a comparibly much longer time trying to cool the TMIC down again.

That's why I lagged mine and fitted a heatshield between the TMIC and rocker cover ! ;-)

 

[stevepudney]

For goodness sake Steve can you not read :lol:

Ok is silicone bends better at flowing than an alloy one?

How many chances do you need for Christ's sake, :lol: :lol:

Just to be finicky it should read :

Ok, are silicone bends better at flowing than an alloy ones?
or
Ok, do silicone bends flow better than an alloy ones?
or
Ok, would a silicone bend flow better than an alloy one? :-D ;-)

I would have thought an alloy or stainless bend would flow better than any slightly flexible silicone bend.

the ARC TMIC of the skyline GTS is small though.. Never saw of the GTR

I was just using my experience of having used a standard R33 Cooler over the ARC version and saying the ARC version was definitely an improvement. I got my ARC R33 cooler from an R33 that had come over from Japan but had damaged in transit and was beyond repair so was being broken at Rising Sun Performance.

Yes that is what i was thinking perhaps a nice mandrel bent pipe and make sure to put a nice chamfer on the leading edges of the pipes

I used a small ball pain hammer and belled all the edges of all the pipes over just slightly, killing to birds with one stone, it would stop the silicone pipe blowing off under high boost and aid air flow over the pipe joint.

It was a bit of a workup though so I bought a swage roller that amongst other things can do the job of the hammer and bell out the edges of the pipe or just put the standard hump round the end of the pipe to stop it blowing off.

 

[jpward]

How many chances do you need for Christ's sake, :lol: :lol:

Just to be finicky it should read :

Ok, are silicone bends better at flowing than an alloy ones?
or
Ok, do silicone bends flow better than an alloy ones?
or
Ok, would a silicone bend flow better than an alloy one? :-D ;-)

I would have thought an alloy or stainless bend would flow better than any slightly flexible silicone bend.


I was just using my experience of having used a standard R33 Cooler over the ARC version and saying the ARC version was definitely an improvement. I got my ARC R33 cooler from an R33 that had come over from Japan but had damaged in transit and was beyond repair so was being broken at Rising Sun Performance.




I used a small ball pain hammer and belled all the edges of all the pipes over just slightly, killing to birds with one stone, it would stop the silicone pipe blowing off under high boost and aid air flow over the pipe joint.

It was a bit of a workup though so I bought a swage roller that amongst other things can do the job of the hammer and bell out the edges of the pipe or just put the standard hump round the end of the pipe to stop it blowing off.

Sounds like you hit your thumb a lot :lol: :lol: :lol:

Right well you got the point and results seam to point in the direction that the alloy has a lower coefficient of friction than the silicone.

Good tip though, but I suspect I would not have the patients to form a perfect cylinder shape on the pipe maybe that could be your next big opening

"Ball Painer to the masses Stevey P always availableHERE"

;-)

 

[stevepudney]

Good tip though, but I suspect I would not have the patients to form a perfect cylinder shape on the pipe maybe that could be your next big opening

Thats why I bought the swage roller you numpty :lol: :lol: I didn't have the patients either

 

[Trip]

Did some more homework and came up with a new idea. What about having a TMIC but instead of having the fins facing up, they face front, which should have more direct air hiting it, just like a FMIC.

I also did a 3D sketch to explain it. (dimensions are in Inches)
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/Trip_gtir/top.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/Trip_gtir/dimens.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/Trip_gtir/3d2.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/Trip_gtir/3d1.jpg

Basically that IC with those dimensions will 95% fit in the enine bay with the bonnet shut. I did raise the bonnet from the back by around 0.75Inches(click). Unfortunately i did not find a 7" thick core like that on the net.

I found a box which had the same height of the 3D sketch, but slightly wider from the width and slightly shorter in length.

Here are the pics. (i know,the car is in a mess)

Without box
With box

As you can see there is a great frontal exposure to fresh air.;-)

 

[campbellju]

Trip, that won't work and that's why you can't find any 7" deep cores on the net.

Intercoolers do most of their work at the leading edge and the most efficient will have the largest surface area exposed to the incoming air where the temperature differential is greatest. Once the air is past 3" it will be warm and will stop cooling as much.

I know a few GT4 owners who put fins on their top mopunts to split the air to the front middle and back to improve cooling across the whole intercooler rather than having all the air rammed to the back.

My pipe run is "similar" to Andy F's short run piccy but I use 2 mandrel bent exhaust bends that are far less acute than the silicon. IIRC Geoff P has a similar setup but we both use a PACE cooler rather than an E-Bay special. These are slightly shorter and thicker than the usual FMIC and allow you to have the shorter run.

 

[campbellju]

Short 60sec runs with around 30minute cool down between runs and N2O is not allowed

Stick a load of ice on before you start, its a common trick.

Whether yout TMIC is efiicient enough for circa 400hp I couldn't say. Someone else has already mentioned water injection and considering you're only doing short runs that would be my favourite solution.

 

[jpward]

Stick a load of ice on before you start, its a common trick.

Whether yout TMIC is efiicient enough for circa 400hp I couldn't say. Someone else has already mentioned water injection and considering you're only doing short runs that would be my favourite solution.

Expect to see Ice boxes as standard in ever R at the next track day :lol:

@ Stevey where did you get the swage? how much are they? :?

 

[Dooie Pop Pop]

Stick a load of ice on before you start, its a common trick.

Whether yout TMIC is efiicient enough for circa 400hp I couldn't say. Someone else has already mentioned water injection and considering you're only doing short runs that would be my favourite solution.

i saw a guy at santa pod using a bodged up rad fan on the tmic with crocadile clips to the battery while he was in the que, rather good idea i thought and it worked pretty well8) i guess the benefits from something like that wouldn' t last long onced removed though...

maybe you could leave it attatched and running or fit a switch for use in traffic lol.

 

[Trip]

Thanks for the comments there guys.

I found that the thicker the IC is the less CFM it has, which probably explains campbellju post.

I guess Nissan did a good job with the TMIC already and there isn't much % you can improve over it. As already mentioned, a good idea is to replace the oem core with a more efficeint one, keeping the original end tanks

 

[Trip]

I even saw ppl with C02 fire extinguishers spraying on the IC

 

[youngsyp]

Stick a load of ice on before you start, its a common trick.

I did that on my first (and last) tip to Santa Pod...... well, with those sealed ice packs for ice boxes. :lol:
That run was half a second quicker than the previous run without ice on the TMIC. I did put my mirrors in as well though ! ;-) :lol: