Intercooler setup

[Trip]

I am looking into finalising my setup and looking into an intercooler setup.

Although i know an FMIC is more efficient in regards to cooling since its more exposed to fresh air, i do not like the excessive pipe runs and was looking for an alternative system with shorter pipe runs.

Alternative setup i am considering are:
Water/air charge cooler
CO2 charge cooler
TMIC

Please note that the car will be ONLY used for Hill climb races consisting of 60Sec races. No traffic, no stoplights heat soak and no cruising scenarios.

Water/air charge cooler.
Although these systems are very efficient in dissipating heat and have a short pipe run, I do not know if they are capable to dissipate heat for a constant 60sec (almost) of ~25psi boost. A sure disadvantage is the weight of this system.

C02 charge cooler.
Basically this is the same as the water/air setup but water is replaced with C02. Manly used for the 1/4mile and can lower intake temp drastically.
The tank can be mounted anywhere (weight distribution) but in order to run 4 runs of 60sec each (240sec) i would need a big CO2 bottle(which will only add weight).

TMIC
This is the cheapest and simplest option, but how efficient is it? I did some calculations on the largest IC core which will fit on top of the engine and it’s not that drastically bad. But I have my concerns since it sits on the engine.


Please bear in mind that I will be running around ~25psi/28psi (built engine, 3071R, DP manifold and MSD ignition). Short 60sec runs with around 30minute cool down between runs and N2O is not allowed


I would love you to add your comments and thoughts to this please. Constructive criticism welcome:-D

 

[youngsyp]

Personally, I'd stick with the TMIC, lag it with reflective tape (Thermo-Tec), put a heat shield underneath, and use water injection.

I'd go for water injection as, it's probably the cheapest thing to buy, maintain and use. You don't have to pay for refills for example, if you're not using methanol ! Plus, it's very effective and will easily last a sprint between tank fills, if you use a decent size tank

If you lagged your manifold, elbow and downpipe, that would also help reduce underbonnet temps.

I've proved with my car that you can make good power with the TMIC. Now I just need to get a probe to monitor intake temps and see just how well it does work !

To improve flow through the TMIC a bit, you can port the inlet and outlet pipes !

 

[Trip]

Are you using a standard TMIC, ARC or a custom one ? and what boost level ?
I don't know much about water injection. Is that really effective ?

I will lag the manifold to keep the gasses hot as possible for a hopefully better spool time.

I found a good site which produce almost any size of intercooler.

thanks

 

[youngsyp]

I'm using the stock TMIC. I polished the end tanks, then covered them in the Thermo-Tec reflective heat tape. I also ported the inlet and outlet pipes for better flow. I've had a heatshield in place, under the cold sie of the TMIC for a while now but, a full size heat shield would be better.
At 1.1 bar, the car made 318 bhp and more importantly, 293 lb's/ft of torque. That was also running very lean.
Only other mods were exhaust and Bltz intake filtration, plus mild porting of the turbo to intercooler pipe. You might want to lag that too !

Water injection is very effective and also has the side effect of steam cleaning your inlet track and cylinders ! Look for ERL kits as, these seem the most popular and best quality !

 

[antgtir]

Interesting figures there Paul, sounds great to me though, ive just got myself an ARC TMIC and was hoping to see some form of inprovement over and above the stock TMIC, fingers crossed i will. Good power figure and of course torque figure, im on the right track with mine then by the looks of things.

Just to add ive never gone for the big power figures so something between the 300 to 350bhp and simialr torque will suit me down to the ground

For the Hill Climb i would say its all about the torque figures you are able to achieve so dependant on other issues such as relibility etc i would have thought any setup could be adapted to suit. Considering Pauls comments and results from his work with the stock TMIC id probably go for that myself as it also retains most of the reliability the R has.

Ant.

 

[pulsarboby]

i sold one of those arc's to mds on this forum not so long ago, and he deffo said there was a benefit and less heat soak when in traffic etc, with quicker spool up and less lag on turbo.
but on a run he couldnt notice any visible differences tbh

 

[stevepudney]

I was using a standard R33 Skyline FMIC but then bought an ARC FMIC from a GTR Skyline and swapped them over and there was a definite improvement, quicker spool up and less lag. The cooler is more efficient as well as the outlet charge temp is on average much cooler.

Frank also says the ARC top mount for the Pulsar was an improment over the standard top mount.



Steve

 

[Trip]

Interesting.. would an ARC cope with high boost figures ?

Thats the main reason i do not want to go with a long pipe-run FMIC because it will add lag and weaken the chrisp throttle response

 

[youngsyp]

As Bob and Steve's comments state, the TMIC can be improved on of course. I'd wager the ARC TMIC would be more efficient due to the larger core and core design.
If you could find an intercooler manufacturer (Allard ?!), I'm sure they could un-weld the stock end tanks and attach them to a more efficient core, for little money ?!
From what I've read, the stock end tanks are quite well designed !

I'm going to see how well the stock TMIC performs with a full length heatshield and then I might upgrade to the ARC, if I can find one at decent money (I think that might be difficult !). I might give Allard a call and see what they can do !

Here's their URL if you're interested: http://www.allardturbosport.co.uk/

Just a side note Trip, removing the rubber sealing strip, between the underside trailing edge of the bonnet and scuttle panel, also helps with under bonnet cooling. I saw a 5 C drop in oil temps from this !

 

[jpward]

As Bob and Steve's comments state, the TMIC can be improved on of course. I'd wager the ARC TMIC would be more efficient due to the larger core and core design.
If you could find an intercooler manufacturer (Allard ?!), I'm sure they could un-weld the stock end tanks and attach them to a more efficient core, for little money ?!
From what I've read, the stock end tanks are quite well designed !

I'm going to see how well the stock TMIC performs with a full length heatshield and then I might upgrade to the ARC, if I can find one at decent money (I think that might be difficult !). I might give Allard a call and see what they can do !

Here's their URL if you're interested: http://www.allardturbosport.co.uk

Just a side note Trip, removing the rubber sealing strip, between the underside trailing edge of the bonnet and scuttle panel, also helps with under bonnet cooling. I saw a 5 C drop in oil temps from this !

4X4 experts i see :lol:

 

[fubar andy]

Why not have a custom pipe run made for you intercooler kit, I know that Geoff (Pine) has done something similar.

I've never been a fan of the cheap ebay pipe runs that come with the kits. In my eyes it’s too long. Norris Designs do a kit for the GTiR, but rather than buy their kit at over £1000 make your own run instead, just "borrow" their design or similar.

Just out of interested where did you did you get your ARC R33 intercooler from Steve?

 

[Trip]

^ I did look into the design of ND, which feeds the IC from between the Radaitor and "bonnet strike plate" and it does minimise the run. This setup would need a narrow/tall IC rather then having the triditional Ebay wide/short IC. The radiator needs to be lowered slightly too.

 

[antgtir]

Just a side note Trip, removing the rubber sealing strip, between the underside trailing edge of the bonnet and scuttle panel, also helps with under bonnet cooling. I saw a 5 C drop in oil temps from this !

Interesting lol crazy how much of an effect a little piece of trim can do so much damage to temps:roll: :lol:

Ant.

 

[Trip]

Just a side note Trip, removing the rubber sealing strip, between the underside trailing edge of the bonnet and scuttle panel, also helps with under bonnet cooling. I saw a 5 C drop in oil temps from this !

i might also slightly raise the bonnet from the latches to aid cooling (saxo/corsa style:lol: ), but i read biased statements about this (not concerning or cars though). The case being you ruin the aerodynamics/flow of the moving air creating a vortex(aerodynamics are not my forte). The only one way to find out is to test it with and without.

 

[fubar andy]

You could still mount the intercooler at the front like most ebay kits, but have some samco 90 degree bends to feed the pipe back up to the inlet.
There might be a bit of cutting required, but you could retain larger piping than the smaller diameter Norris dribble!

Perhaps have the pipe run, go from the back of the engine bay and descend to the front of the car, connecting with some samco hosing (90 degree bends).

Long pipe run


Shorter run piping from the turbo to the cooler, kind of like the image below?

Turbo to the cooler

I know its not 100% clear, I have some diagrams here that I have made up for mine, but it cuts down on the normal ebay runs buy about 40% saving lag time and keeping it as responsive as possible.

Time will tell if it works or not...

 

[youngsyp]

Interesting lol crazy how much of an effect a little piece of trim can do so much damage to temps:roll: :lol:

Ant.

It's a very simple concept too. Basically, all the air that enters the front of the bonnet doesn't normally have anywhere to go. Once that strips removed, it can flow out, and up over the windscreen !

There are so many simple and virtually free mods you can do to the R to improve all manner of things. Making the bonnet vent holes slightly bigger is another one. That's on my list to do too !

@Trip

I'd not expect any side effects from raising the back off the bonnet. If you look at the front of the car, air would hit the bumper and front of the bonnet, and be forced up and not touch the car again until it hit around 1 half to 2 thirds up the windscreen, where it would be forced over the roof. To demonstrate this, next time it rains, go for a drive and you'll see all teh water on the top of teh bonnet, just sits there ! ;-)

This basically means that the back of teh bonnet would be a low pressure area so, the extra warm air from under the bonnet, should escape no problem. That's my thinking any way !

The problem with short pipe runs, is the angles the pipes go through. Don't forget, every bend will take kinetic energy out of the charge so, slowing it down. The more acute the angle of the bend, the more kinetic energy it will take out !

@Andy

Not to take anything away from you Andy but, hat pic of the turbo to intercooler piping, is extremely poor, in terms of flow design, in my eyes. Although, I would admit that, it's what most of teh pipe designs for FMIC's look like.
Even though the 'Hybrid' design pipe is longer than that, I bet the pipe angulations futher along, aren't as acute ?!

 

[Trip]

You could still mount the intercooler at the front like most ebay kits, but have some samco 90 degree bends to feed the pipe back up to the inlet.
There might be a bit of cutting required, but you could retain larger piping than the smaller diameter Norris dribble!

Perhaps have the pipe run, go from the back of the engine bay and descend to the front of the car, connecting with some samco hosing (90 degree bends).

Long pipe run


Shorter run piping from the turbo to the cooler, kind of like the image below?

Turbo to the cooler

I know its not 100% clear, I have some diagrams here that I have made up for mine, but it cuts down on the normal ebay runs buy about 40% saving lag time and keeping it as responsive as possible.

Time will tell if it works or not...

Both runs in those pics look fairly "tall" although i didn't really understand the "long pipe run" pic.
Its the overal volume of the pipe run + IC which will effect the lag and throttle response(TR). Small volume will restrict the system, large volume will incresae the lag and TR. You need to find the right size in the middle.
If i understand the whole concept right, its better to have a slightly small diameter pipe run and a slightly larger IC, then vice verca. but thats only my understanding.

 

[Trip]

The more acute the angle of the bend, the more kinetic energy it will take out !

Well said

similar in theory that a straight tru exhaust will flow better.

 

[GINGA]

Ashbhp was running 350hp (1.4bar) on a std tmic a few years ago with no problems. I had temp gauge on my old car when it was running a tmic and found it worked really well, no different to a fmic when on the move and even in slow traffic it still kept the temps down aslong as you were moving, the biggest issue was when you stopped moving the temps would rise rapidly and once moving again, it would take alot longer for the tmic to cool down compared to the fmic.

 

[antgtir]

Ashbhp was running 350hp (1.4bar) on a std tmic a few years ago with no problems. I had temp gauge on my old car when it was running a tmic and found it worked really well, no different to a fmic when on the move and even in slow traffic it still kept the temps down aslong as you were moving, the biggest issue was when you stopped moving the temps would rise rapidly and once moving again, it would take alot longer for the tmic to cool down compared to the fmic.

This has always been the issue with the TMIC, they work extremely well when being "used" i.e. car is moving and the power of the vehicle doesn't exceed its capabilities.

However as you say the problem arises when you sit in traffic and then take a comparibly much longer time trying to cool the TMIC down again.

In addition with the TMIC there is a greater likelyhood of potentially det'ing as the heat isn't dissapated as well as that with a FMIC, alot depends on the setup, fueling wise, of the car i would say:?

Ant.