Brakes

[Anonymous]

I have tar-ox 6 pot calipers 285mm discs and they used to be brilliant but recently despite changing pads and discs they fade really easily so i plan to get reconditioned calipers and ceramic discs and pads cos fade pisses me off no end. Ex-gtir and i are working on an upgrade for the master cylinder which will hopefully sort my braking out once and for all.

Has anyone done anything to their master cylinder at all yet?
Another problem that i and most owners have is the double pump syndrome where you have to press the pedal once with no feel, then the second one the feel is back and its normal again, despite bleeding properly. Nick from powerstation said he also has the same problems and has never solved it either.

 

[J-GTi-R]

Another problem that i and most owners have is the double pump syndrome where you have to press the pedal once with no feel, then the second one the feel is back and its normal again, despite bleeding properly. Nick from powerstation said he also has the same problems and has never solved it either.

Yep, I certainly do have that problem, but was reliably informed 'they all do that mate', lol.

 

[jonee]

you have a pm

 

[Anonymous]

im interested in buying a hi spek billet 4 conversion if its 20% off. im after the 325mm kit 795 inc vat b4 discount includes2 4pot calipers,2rotors cross drilled or groved,2bells,braket set,fitin set.n theyl luk v nike2.if ur interested dunkan or any1 else?

 

[1000ny]

check out gtir.spares new brembo big brake kit, have`nt tried them yet but bound to be quality and they look wicked. 8)

group buy being organised at the mo too, save yourself some dolllar.

 

[Cris]

Another problem that i and most owners have is the double pump syndrome where you have to press the pedal once with no feel, then the second one the feel is back and its normal again, despite bleeding properly. Nick from powerstation said he also has the same problems and has never solved it either.

Yep, I certainly do have that problem, but was reliably informed 'they all do that mate', lol.

S'cuse me for chucking my whore in (or do I mean oar). But I would think that the solution to having the pump up the brakes is one of three things:

1. Bad fluid - perhaps air in the lines. Should be able to be sorted easily.

2. knackered brake hoses - rubber stretching. Again easy to sort with braided hoses.

3. Wrong master cylinder ratio. The ratio between master cylinder and caliper piston is vital to the feel and power of the system. I am always amazed that everyone changes thier single pot calieprs for for or six pot calipers whilst retaining the master cylinder.

I think that number 3 is probably the main reason.

COD science explanation:

If the standard piston has a diameter of 3cm its area is 7.07cm2 (Pir2 - that supposed to say Pi x radius squared)

New caliper has smaller pistons (say 2cm) but four of them so area is 12.57cm2 (Pi x 1x1 x 4)

I am assuming that the displaced area is the same (i.e. the four pistons move half as far but act on two sides cancelling the difference out

So we have the master cylinder trying to move 25.14cm2 of fluid rather than 14.14cm2 a 79% increase in displacement.

Now the above piston diameters are not correct but perhaps they do help illustrate the point.

The above data is gained from a number of sources (Performing Berks Technical Articles in part and GCSE Maths ). I have found a site in Yankeeland where a chap fitted 300ZX calipers to his 180SX (they call it the 200 SX other there - S13 BTW). Anyway he then stuck a 300ZX master cylinder on it and this helped enourmously apparently. I haven't got the website to hand but apparently this conversion is very popular over the pond and is relavent because the S13 apparently uses the same calipers and discs as the R.

When funds permit I will be looking into this further.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok guys,

This is all just my opinion, not posted to cause arguments but as I stated at the begining I wanted to answer some of the questions that alot of people (myself included) had!

I've looked into most routes now and have decided that unless you are some kind of track day junkie monster kits from AP/Tarox/etc are slight overkill for fast road use and my car would benefit from spending the extra cash on chassis mods instead. So that rules them out.

I've heard varying reports on the HiSpec kits. They seem to be good VFM but it seems you need to go for one of the Monster 4/6 kits to get a lasting improvement. (From what owners have told me)

The Brembo kit featured in the group buy seems to be (IMO) expensive for a 1 pc disc set up. And although their calipers are excellent, Brembo don't make the greatest discs in the world. However, this kit would look absolutly AWSOME behind your wheels! But that isn't what I'm after.

A few people seem to have to Wilwood kits from Rally designs and seem to be very happy with it. Their 285mm kit has straight veins and is of a one pc construction but warping does not seem to have been a problem. The 310mm kit is a straight vein, 2 pc set up and seems to last well with no fade/warping.

Other 'Mix and match' from other vehicles seem to give good results but, if I am honest, I cant be bothered ringing round scrappies and getting discs made up. Pure laziness on my part!

Based on this I'm looking for someone who wants a Wilwood 310mm kit or any other info that could change my mind.

Cheers,
Duncan

 

[Fast Guy]

I drove my next door neighbours Gtir, he has Tarox 6pots on the front. His were the same, push once not impressed, push again solid.
My thoughts also go with the brake master not moving enough fluid in one pump. My reasoning is that if it was air in the system, it should be spongy every time you press it, and similarly for the brake hoses, you expect the same feel each time.

 

[Anonymous]

So does anyone know of a master cylinder upgrade that cures/helps the problem?

Dunc

 

[J-GTi-R]

Nope, and that is definitely the problem with mine, as I put on new braided hoses and had the whole system flushed with AP Racing fluid.

 

[Odin]

Well my AP's work first time every time and I still have the same
master cylinder and slave 8) ,But there are new and I have braided
hoses and raceing blue fluid.

The only time I'v ever noticed an improvement in the way they work
was when I changed to the raceing blue fluid and now work even better
than before.

raceing blue costs alot but works very well .

 

[DodgeT]

i recently upgraded to hispec 285mm discs while keeping the standard calipers with pagid fast road pads.

have not done a track day with them, yet, but on fast road use, they seem very good

did a 100 mile country blast with a couple of mates in scoobs, & the brakes had plenty of use & im really impressed with them.

still got to fit the braided hoses, change the fluid & renew the rear discs/pads so it should get better cus me rears are fooked.

 

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know for sure which master cylinders will be compatible with our brakes and including the whole ABS system. Although i will be very happy to scrap the ABS if need be.

I just want good brakes.
I have braided lines, blue racing fluid and tar-ox 6-pots but the master cylinder cannot cope.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, no-one has changed my mind so based on the testement of many owners I'm now looking for someone else who wants to get the 310mm Wilwood kit. If there are 2 of us the kit will be £580 instead of the rrp of £725. Any takers???

Duncan

 

[Pete Watson]

New Brakes

Hi, new member and new owner here.

I am looking to upgrade the Brakes as a starting point for my new car, i have been reading the various remarks and suggestions about Brake Upgrades and am still a bit in the dark.

I have thought about Hi Spec 300mm front kit with Billet 4 pots but which pads would be the best, i was going to use Greenstuff but it sounds like this would be a bad choice. I could use Mintex, Ferodo or Pagid which would be the best to go for?

I was also thinking about fitting Big Disc Kit to the rear but retaining the original calipers, this would be 285mm. Is this a worth while improvment and again which pads would be best.

Lastly i have been reading comments about the Master Cyc, this was something i had thought about before looking in this forum and it seems others have had a few problems in this area. I also own a relatively quick Opel Manta which has Hi Spec 4 Pots up front and a Disc Conversion to the rear, becasue of this i have had to upgrade the Master Cyc, i have opted for a Willwood Cyc with a larger internal Bore.

I would be greatful for any help in any of the Braking areas before i start spending. Hopefully i will have the Brakes sorted in time for the meet at Castle Coombe on May22nd. If not you should be able to find me stuck in the embankment at Quarry...

Cheers Pete

 

[coxie]

fao duncan i'm in on buying a group kit of the willwoods check your pm. :!:

also thanks to mr gtir for the info on the phone the other night regarding willwoods.....cheers mate

 

[Anonymous]

OK guys,

I'm going to be ordering the Wilwood kit from Rally Designs but have a few people who have expressed an interest. As the kits have to be ordered in pairs anyone who wants one will need to pair up. To make this easier for you all (and cos I'm such a nice guy) if you all want to e-mail me at duncan.lang@jci.com I'll try and pair you all up. Let me know when you want to buy and where abouts in the country you are and I'll try and sort something out.

Cheers,
Dunc

 

[campbellju]

Got the Wilwood 2 piece kit on the front of mine. To say they're good is an understatement. I gave my passenger whip-lash driving round Oulton Park they're so strong. :lol: :lol: True Story!!

Only problem is, the rears are pathetic in comparisson so the braking feels overly forward biased.

 

[ian c]

double press

usually the double press method is required when the discs are warped....its because the disc knocks the pistons back into the caliper...your first press brings the pad close, then the second makes the full braking pressure..........

After market calipers are great, providing they are matched to the master cyl......How can they all fit all braking systems...They can't.....Thats why when i did my brake conversion i did my research, found that the 200sx has same master cylinder dimensions and so using those 4 pots was the obvious answer.........

.....they don't need to be pumped, regardless of abuse!

 

[KrissJ]

I have the Hi Spec billet 4 pot conversion on the front with 300mm vented and grooved discs, alloy bells, braided hoses and Mintex 1144 pads. I also have mintex 1144 pads on the back as well.

The pads squeel a bit and take a little warming up (they're not too bad when cold and as soon as the engine's warm the pads tend to be anyway) but when they are warm, oh my god the brakes are effective!!!

When I rung Hi Spec up about them (I bought them direct and they're very well priced!) they told me that the Mintex were the best pads to go for with the conversion. The kit works very well and hasn't even felt close to fading, even when I've been on very long, very fast drives round where I live (in the Lakes).

I also have the whiteline handling kit on, which makes the car feel a lot sturdier under braking and inspires extreme last second pressure It should feel even better when I get my Tein coilovers on 8)

I've never had my car on a track but before I got my brakes someone said they had the Hi Spec 4 pots with solid 285mm discs and that they hadn't faded even when he'd been flyin round a track most of the day.

Hope that is more help to the loads you've already got.