Power fc datalogit mapping thread

GINGA

Active Member
Well i've had my fc datalogit for a few days now(cheers mate :wink: ) 8)
So I thought i'd start a thread as to how i'm getting on with it and to see how others who have it are getting on :?:
Anyway first thing to do was install it on the car which is simple enough just unplug the commander from the pfc and plug in the datalogit then if you wish to still use the commander (i use it to watch the knock levels while driving)then plug it into the datalogit.
Then its just a matter of connecting it to the laptop with the usb or serial connector (I have the usb) and loading the software or so I thought :roll:
I connected the usb to the laptop the laptop picked it up but couldn't find the driver for it :? lots of messing around later I found out the driver for it is on the floppy disc also supplied which is great if your laptop has a floppy drive :roll: mine doesn't and iirc most modern laptops don't either, so why stick it on a floppy ffs :roll:
So I stick the floppy in the desktop and it doesn't work :x alittle messing around again and it starts working 8) so how to get it from the pc to the lt, I decide to email the files to myself on another email addy :wink: the files won't email :x I try various emails but they refuse to email :roll: so in the end I uploaded to files onto a online email address (yahoo) then swop back to the lt and get them back off the email and load them onto the lt 8) if they'd just stuck the drivers on the software disc in the first place this would have been much easier :roll:
So I load the software onto the pc(this has to be done manually) and try again to connect the datalogit hooray its works and finds the driver for the usb this time 8)
No manual comes with the datalogit so alittle more looking finds it on the software disc in pdf format all be it for a r33 skyline :roll: but everythings pretty much the same and you get the general idea :wink:
So I follow the instructions and "read all" setting etc on the pfc as it is and save incase I have to revert back to the original base map :oops: this needs to be done as the default base map on the datalogit is for a S15 :? and is no use on the R, I deleted this default S15 map and replaced it with the gtir base map that came with the pfc to avoid any confusion later on, this base map had already been setup to use the z32 maf and sard 700cc injectors with the commander so I wouldn't need to mess around setting all that if I did need to reload the base map again.
So I spend some time looking through the features it has and like what I see as you can change just about everything and theres so much more than what can be accessed with the commander, the thing I find really good is in the map watch mode you can set it up so you can see the knock levels at every point on the 20/20 map allowing you to do a run then go back and check the map and see exactly whereabouts and at what load there is room for improvement 8) if you have a wideband afr meter with a external output this can also be used on the map watch so you can see exactly what the afr level is for every point on the map which simplifys tuning massivley 8) the antilag could also be pretty cool :twisted:
So with the aid of the R's knock sensor (supposed to be pretty good) a wideband afr gauge with datalogging and external output and a egt gauge I'm finally set up to go and have a play 8)
this is what my dash looks like at the moment lol

http://uk.msnusers.com/_Secure/0SgCz*9wV6i6o*Q5ALVOQJ4OLge4*VzWypLigg3nWNEFlOmEuhuGNeR2xOpXYggPazpRuxlLxwGj!NrdmziLLCo9CsKOwgoaEfkw4QyUQaD!aSnkA41CJCw/Picture%20024.jpg?dc=4675500895034053516


So with everything finally setup and working I go for a drive the first thing I found and all ready knew this from the commander was that the load scale on the map wasn't large enough so by 4000rpm the airflow had gone off the top of the 20/20 map which only reads to about 4v with the z32 maf this is of no use really as it means any airflow above 4v's has to be mapped with the 4v load line :( this is a problem with the commander as you can't do anything about it but with the datalogit you can rescale the load settings to go all the way upto the z32's max output of 5.120v so I precede to rescale the load axis of the map to allow me to map for all the airflow i'm using, I then adjust all the fuel and ignition settings to match the new scale which has to be done otherwise you could have the 4v settings at 5.1v's which could leave you with massively over advanced ignition advance and dangerously lean fuelling :shock:
I use the compare function to compare the new map with the old one to make sure theres no major errors on my part, this shows up as either yellow map points for - settings and red for + settings 8)
Everything looks ok so I load the map onto the pfc and start the car :D its runs like a bag of cr@p lol massively overfuelling and generally awful I try to take it for a short drive but return quickly as its hesitating badly etc
I swop back to the base map and all is ok again :? I call it a day at that point as the lt battery is dying at this point(3hrs bat life yeh right more like 1hr toshiba :roll: )
I then go back to the sofa and procede to compare the 2 maps again with the compare function(anything different shows up in either red or yellow) I can't see any problems, much head scratching later and I realise the airflow voltages have fuked up somehow and are all over the place the compare function didn't show this :? so I reset all the airflow points(32) to the correct voltages from the base map and everything looks good again :D I play around with the maps alittle more making some more fine adjustments to the timing etc and save what i've done and relax on the sofa with a cool stella or 4 :wink:
day 2 and I try again, I reload the new map onto the pfc and start her up again bingo alls working well this time so I go for a drive with the map watch watching the knock and me watching the afr meter on the dash for the fuelling (I also set the knock warning to 50 from 60 to give me more safety) I drive steadily and alls well so I give it some throttle in 5th (most load and slowest build up speed to aid logging) it gets upto 4000rpm then the engine management light flashes to warn me the knock as has gone over 50 (60's supposed to be safe limit) so I abort the run and check the map watch sure enough at load point 18/19 at 3600rpm i've got a knock level of 56 so I back the timing off 1 degree at each point and try again much better this time but still alittle high a few adjustments and all is well :D time for another run with more revs I take it upto 5k rpm this time only to find its still going off the top of the map so I rescale the load axis again and try again, its now staying in the map and the knock levels under full load as now acceptable I call it a day again for now as the lt bats are dying again :roll: I save all the watches and logs to look at later and make adjustments to the map as required.
You'll notice I haven't messed with the fuelling yet as its safe at the moment at 14.5ish afr on cruise and high 10's low 11's under load and the egt temps haven't gone about 800 so i've left that for now to concentrate on the timing :wink:
I go for a bit longer drive to check the fuelling etc and alls well though i've only revved upto 5k rpm at the moment due to the new big ends in the engine :roll:
I'll update as I go along with the highs and lows of mapping with the datalogit 8)

Although I'm using the knock sensor to check for det and it seems to work well I need to make up a set of det cans to double check things, anybody made a set up :?: if so how did you do it, is it just a case of getting a set of ear defendings and drilling a hole in them then getting a length of rubber hose going to them from the engine bay :?: or is it more complicated than that as I can't find anything on the net about it :?

I've also ordered a car charger for the lt so I can spend longer than 45 mins playing lol
Hows everybody else getting on then :?:[/img]
 

GINGA

Active Member
My datalogit came from datalogit themselfs http://www.fc-datalogit.co.nz price is on the site as I don't know the exact price as it was bought for me in exchange for goods :wink: iirc is around £200 shipped though :wink:
There was a guy selling electronic det cans on the mlr a while ago that I was going to get but i'm not sure how reliable they would be :?:
 

skiddusmarkus

Active Member
At 10 OTB there was a guy there using some headphones made from a bulldog clip and some fishtank airline and he said it works as well as anything.It was clipped onto the block where the standard oil breatehr goes.
You can buy Vauxhall knock sensores for about £35(just got one)and Knocklinks for about £100 if you want some flashy lights.
 

GINGA

Active Member
ashills said:
ginga ive got the det cans with an amp now so can here stuff alot clearer
may be able to bring them on sunday if u wanna listen
Cheers mate but I can't make Sunday now due to the fact I forgot on working days that day :oops:

skiddusmarkus Posted: 09 Dec 2004 17:56 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 10 OTB there was a guy there using some headphones made from a bulldog clip and some fishtank airline and he said it works as well as anything.It was clipped onto the block where the standard oil breatehr goes.
Yeh that makes sense as I've been told before to bolt a piece of copper tube to the block and then attach a pipe to that and some head phones.
Think i've also seen just a set of head phones with a pipe attached to them and the other end of the pipe stuck placed down near the block :?:
 

GINGA

Active Member
Nobody else tried any mapping then :?:

Oh well i've been playing some more but things were held up by a misfire that had me stumped for a while but has always been there :? this turned out to be the fact the spark plug gaps were about 0.035" :roll: closed them down to 0.025" and all seems ok again :D
Still been having trouble with xs det in the mid range which is proving a pain to sort out as even with the timing backed right off to 10 degrees totally advance its still detting :? fuelling is pretty rich at that point aswell so seems little point in increasing that, the strange thing is that looking at the data logging the det seems to jump up and down several times in the space of one mapping point which is curious as I would have expected it to be a period of continous det if it was a timing or fuelling mapping problem which leads me to believe that something else is causing the problem :? or my det sensor is knackered which is unlikely as its quite stable at other times.
I tried going back to the original map with further adjusted timing as I thought maybe the load points were to spaced apart now but this has made no difference either :( I also removed the bov incase that was leaking and messing with the setting but again no improvment.
The boost control (dawes type thing :roll: ) is causing a problem as its not controlling the boost at all well and could be the cause of the det problems as in 4th/5th gears(where the det happens) planting the throttle can cause the boost to spike upto 1.6bar before dropping to 1.4bar then down to 1.3bar higher in the rev range :( after xmas a avcr will be bought to solve this as it should allow me to slow the spool up in the mid range then stop the boost dropping off at high rpm, then hopefully it should hold the 1.4bar I want it to.
I'm stumped by this midrange det at the moment as would have thought the timing being retarded that far would have solved it, I may try adding alittle more fuel but can't see that helping tbh, another thing that crosses my mind is that the boost spike is just to much for the standard compression which will hopefully be sorted by the boost controller.
I've also still got to make up some det cans :oops: to confirm or deny what the det sensor is saying as I could be trying to fix a problem that isn't there :roll:
 

GINGA

Active Member
Although the sensor and solenoid is the same as the avcr the power fc has very limited controlling just a basic duty cylce which isn't adjustable against rpm like the avcr is, so not allowing manual control of the boost.
With the avcr I can turn down the duty cycle as it comes onto boost 3-4k rpm to stop the spike then turn the duty cycle up to counter the drop off past 6k rpm
I'd like to use the boost kit to keep it all in one unit as i'm not a fan of having loads of electronics all over the car but the avcr just has so many more functions and isn't that much more expensive to buy, shame its such a chav magnet really :(
 

Jobi Joba

Member
GINGA said:
Everything looks ok so I load the map onto the pfc and start the car :D its runs like a bag of cr@p lol massively overfuelling and generally awful I try to take it for a short drive but return quickly as its hesitating badly etc
I swop back to the base map and all is ok again :?
I then go back to the sofa and procede to compare the 2 maps again with the compare function(anything different shows up in either red or yellow) I can't see any problems, much head scratching later and I realise the airflow voltages have fuked up somehow and are all over the place the compare function didn't show this :? so I reset all the airflow points(32) to the correct voltages from the base map and everything looks good again :D I play around with the maps alittle more making some more fine adjustments to the timing etc and save what i've done and relax on the sofa with a cool stella or 4 :wink:
Could you explain a little bit more what u've done to cure your bad running pb?I see what u've done first with the load scale,but don't see why it was running badly after that...and what you have done to oslve that problem while keeping a good load scale.


(very intertesting thread)

BTW,I think your det problem in the mid range can be caused by two things:
- it's in the mid range where the boost comes on.Your boost controller is not the best one...so maybe your boost is not raising perfectly linearly.So it could end up in the PFC having hard time to react correctly and fast enough to the evolution of the situation.
- maybe in the mid range it's just the frequency which makes one particular part in your engine goes wobbly or so.And the det sensor sees that as knock as it could have the same "sound". U catch my drift?
 

GINGA

Active Member
When I changed the loadscale somehow I managed to loose the voltages that relate to the airflow against each load point so when I ran the car with the dodgy load voltages it massivley overfuelled due to seeing to much voltage eg airflow, to get it working again I copied the votages from the default map settings to the new map settings :wink:

the engine rpm frequency is a possibility but its strange it only really causes a problem in 4th/5th unless its the fact it stays in that rpm zone longer in those gears :?
The boost control is the prime canidate though the boost still seems alittle low to cause that bigger problem.
Watching the datalogging with knock against airflow,injector duty cycle, ignition timing, rpm, speed, wideband afr, throttle position etc etc reveals no real problems though I do get the odd weak spike in the range sometimes but thats isn't at the same rpm as the det and doesn't appear to have any effect on the engines running.
The det when it happens doesn't stay level either, it jumps up and down several times by as much as 30 in the space of a single map point before settling down again as the revs rise, I would have thought if it was actually detting I'd see a constant rise in the det level :?:

Lowering the timing lessoned the problem abit but further lowering of the timing as made no difference, also tried lowering the timing in areas even remotely close to the problem points aswell as increasing the fuelling with no improvement either again the datalogging of the afr level shows the fuelling to be fine anyway.
Going to make myself up a set of det cans with a copper pipe bolted to the block so I should be able to tell if its actually detting or something else setting the det readings off :roll:
 

GINGA

Active Member
Avcr ordered from apex performance 8) should be here after xmas then just got to fit the bloody thing :roll:
Already have a new det sensor lying around so will fit that aswell.

Looking at the datalogging further with it at 0.1 sec points the det level becomes more stable but still jumps up and down sveral times in the space of 1 mapping point :?
Another interesting point is should be able to work out 0-60 and 0-100 times etc from the datalogging aswell which is pretty 8)

For instance while testing the car did 40-100mph in 4th gear in 10 seconds uphill whether thats good or bad I dunno lol but it will enable me to see what effect the mapping has on the cars actual performance 8)
 
J

John Mc

Guest
Hi Ginga,

I asked a mate of mine about your problems and here is his reply if you need any more info. let me know and I'll get him to have a look at what you write in an e-mail and send it to him to have a look at.

Here's what he said:-

It does sound like he is getting det. The rapid fluctuations in the knock reading are consistent with the signal from the knock sensor ie. transient and momentary (very quick and hard to read), usually appearing as a spike rather than a gradual slope up/down.

On the other hand, if the det is appearing anywhere other than peak torque rpm, it could be phantom knock. This is where the knock sensor picks up spurious noise which isn't knock but is still measured. The sensors are tuned to a frequency range but you still get some interference.

As he suggests, I would get hold of some det cans(electronic ones are best-IMO) and listen to the engine.

If he is getting phantom knock, you can move the knock sensor around until you locate the source of the spurious noise and rectify it.

Anyway mate, hope that helps!


Regards

John
 

GINGA

Active Member
Cheers John 8)
Think that points to the fact it is detting then (poor old standard pistons lol) as it is at the point of max torque that it happens :( then tails off as the revs rise even though the ignition timing is advancing once past the max torque area.
suppose I could just lower the boost and see if the det goes away just can't bring myself to turn it down :oops:

Could anybody who's had there car pro mapped tell me what there ignition timing is set to at max load from 3200rpm to about 5000rpm :?: mines set at 10 degrees in this area which seems pretty low as the scooby boys have mentioned they've run upto 20 degrees in the midrange with similar boost pressures and comp ratio :?
 
J

John Mc

Guest
No probs mate, I've mailed him your latest query although he has only mapped an EVO but maybe able to help :wink:

What sort of power have you run the standard pistons up to? If you don't mind me asking of course :D
 
J

John Mc

Guest
Ginga,

I meant BHP power and boost level on standard pistons?

Here is my mates reply after your last post on what you've been doing.

Hi mate,

The key rule of mapping is not to get hung up on what other people say they can run :)

For example, a really well set-up Evo 4G63 may only be able to run 2-6 degrees of ignition advance at peak torque but will still produce good figures.

Just map it to detonation then retard 2-3 degrees. Don't be too worried about what the actual map value is, just be content that you know your limitations. Every engine is different; MBT is the aim.


Hope this helps mate :wink:

Cheers

John
 
S

sam_elassar

Guest
merry christmas everybody :D

nice thread i have been pointed to few days ago. i have mapped rishi car after we managed to get it started thanks to your help Ginga :D

OK, now to the point in question, what you have sounds like det. basically det is tansient and only last of a split of a second, check this link out
http://www.westechperformance.com/pages/Tech_Library/Understanding/hpvstq.html#Anchor-IGNITION-33869

http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm

so the little spikes that you are having are most diffenetaly det. basically you have been caught up comparing notes with timing tables from different engines which was your first mistake.

subaru engine is very ineffecient engine and hence it uses alot of ignition advance. the old engines are only 8:1 compression and the engine lay out is not the most effecient and that is why you will need more igntion to actually get complete combustion of the fuel. just because an engine or a mod allows more ignition does not mean it is actually making things better could be totally the opposite!! you need to think about what it is doing to the engine etc but that is anothe story all together.


i have mapped evo, scoobs, gtir over the last couple of years, scoobs run around 18-20degrees at the 1.6bar some more some less but this will be more than enough to blow your evo or gtir engine :D

gti-r run around 10-12degrees at 1.5bar till 5500-6000revs then you can add more if you want.

evos run 8-10 degrees at 1.5 bar and 2 degrees at 2 bar .

so forget the number you are getting, most likely you will be running single figures at max torque, the areas you are detting in generally drop the timing by 2 degrees at the time over max torque.


i hope this helps.
 
S

sam_elassar

Guest
GINGA said:
Hi Sam
Thanks for that, it explains alot 8) I really appreciate your reply to this thread as it help not only me but also other home mappers 8)

And of course thanks to John and his mate again :D
no problems, just be careful with igntion advance. the only way to map the igntion table is slowly, and in increments. you have to go through the whole map or otherwise you will miss things. with a maf sensor it it becomes difficult. what i would suggest is you datalog your runs at 0.5bar, 0.7bar,1bar, 1.2, 1.4 and do few runs for each. this way you will not miss anything.

another thing to bear in mind, if you get a det in zone 10X15 for example that doesn ot mean that this is the exact zone were you got det!!! it all depends on the processing speed of the ecu, power fc is 16bit i think. the det could be in the zones before that. it could be 10x14 or 9x14 or even something further away. det is a tansient after event, so you get det, then the knock senosr is triggered kind of thing.


happy mapping
 

GINGA

Active Member
Cheers Sam
Think I'll try lowering all the mapping points right down in and around the problem area and then slowly build them up again and go from there, I should have really started like that anyway for safety sake but made the mistake of comparing maps from different engines so thought 10 degrees was all ready low :oops:
I had thought that the logging might have been slightly out so had been lowering the mapping points around the problem area's aswell but only by a degree or 2.
I have noticed when looking at the 3D graphs that the standard base map apears to have some quite large holes in it though these appear to be in sections of the map that I haven't used to date, well on the road at least this would probably be different on the track where higher rpm could be used.
One things for sure this mapping lark is certainly a time consuming thing lol but very interesting at the same time 8)
 
S

sam_elassar

Guest
going away in holiday from tomorrow morning, your igntion map should be flat curves with NO hole for god sake :D. starts at 40 or something like that at the top end than it tapers down evenly. not difficult to achieve in a hurry but with experience you can almost work out the whole shape of the map from few det points in the mid range. if you know what i mean.

best thing is to email me your map and the software that you are using and i will be able to tidy it up for you to see how it should look like, then you can start from there. you can blow an engine if it dets too many times while mapping so be safe and slow at this stage! the power fc is mapped for 100ron or 101ron octane which means at least 4-5degrees more than our fuel. so be safe :D


sam
 

GINGA

Active Member
Have a good one 8)
Have now smoothed out the map so the timing drops at more equal rates without the large changes between mapping points that were on the base map :? car drives really nicely now I must say 8)
I dropped the timing right down to 5 degrees in the max torque/boost area then built steadily back up again until the knock readings were in the low 40's insted of 50's as before, the datalogging shows things are much more stable now as a result 8)
Avcr has arrived so got to fit that then I can start mapping the boost instages as mentioned, going to have to start with 1 bar as thats the actuator pressure but then 1.2bar, 1.4bar and maybe 1.6bar :twisted: the idea being being that in off boost will be 1bar, setting A will be 1.4bar, and setting B will be 1.6bar :D
Runs a bit rich while cruising so lowered the fuelling to 15.3afr to get a bit better fuel econ out of the thing by using the airflow correction settings as its alot easier than trying to change the map itself, I lowered the fuelling below 2.5v airflow (cruise) to get the weaker fuelling at cruise but left it as it was above 2.5v so it wouldn't run lean under acceleration.
This worked ok while cruising but seems to have affected the acceleration enrichment, meaning that when you first start to increase the throttle it runs weak for a split second before the fuelling catches up this caused a slight hesitation while driving at slow speed, there is settings to adjust the acceleration enrichment but I decided to just return the airflow correction settings to how they were beforehand for now until i've pefected the high load mapping :wink:
 

GINGA

Active Member
avcr all fitted and has started learning the boost curve, although it seems to be having alittle trouble controlling the boost in the lower gears as it hit 1.9bar a few times :lol: det levels were still ok though which is nice.
Ran held boost upto 1.6bar and all seemed well 8) avcr was working well in the higher gears but probably needs more time to learn the lower gears as its in them for a pretty short time each time and I hadn't set the gear judge up yet either :roll: hopefully now thats done it will control the boost better in the lower gears.
Didn't really have time to start mapping each boost setting as the fuel ran out pretty quickly and I couldn't be bothered to refuel again :oops:
Standard lambda sensor doesn't appear to be working either :roll: so the closed loop lambda control won't be working which is probably why its a bit rich while cruising so need to either replace the lambda or wire in the narrow band output from the wideband to the ecu to get that working again, think i'll end up getting a new standard lambda though as I want to remove all the gauges etc once i've finished messing with the mapping for that factory look :wink:
 
Top