Harnesses etc

[PobodY]

I was just thinking about this years GTiROC track day, and wondering what I need to buy/do beforehand.

Originally I was thinking about getting a harness to hold me in place, but having looked through the old threads I think maybe this is a bad idea:

• I don't have the required rear mounting points to give me a ±20 degree angle from my shoulders: no harness bar; I'm not stupid enough to use the strut brace; so that would leave the rear seatbelt mounts.
  That may not be such an issue if I don't plan to crash, but then who does? :?
• I don't have a roll cage, so in the event of a roll-over I'm risking getting squashed?
• I don't have fancy bucket seats... although I was looking at them on teh eBays.
• I'm not interested in "wank factor", so if there's no advantage I'll quietly forget about it.

So I guess what I'm trying to work-out is if there's any advantage to having a harness just to keep me still in the seat, or should I just be looking at a "CG Lock"? - Does anyone have one of these; are they any good?
If I bought a bucket seat, would that actually be any use without a harness (because the higher edges would interfere with the inertia belt, meaning it doesn't actually hold me in place)?
Is it even worth considering when I don't have any fancy suspension nor blistering performance?

Thinking about it; I'm happy enough with fitting things I can easily take out again (for example a harness I could just un-clip), but I don't want to lose my interior so that I can't use the car for anything else. - I may not be commuting in it at the moment, but I was thinking of doing an MBA and that probably means driving instead of catching the train.

 

[fubar andy]

I had a 4 point harness system in my car for a while with standard seats (and interior).

I used the rear seatbelt mounts and the front mounting points and it was fine.

Granted its wasn't FiA spec, but I fed the belts through the head rest point and bingo it worked!

Once strapped in I was fine and the belts did their job.

On the other hand once I had fitted my cage, FiA seat and bolted in an FiA 3" system that was even better.

For one or two trackdays like yourself I'd just bang in a 2" belt system and once finished swap it back over again - simple!

 

[Trondelond]

I don't have a roll cage, so in the event of a roll-over I'm risking getting squashed?

That's why I'm not using harnesses for other things than Auto-X at least. I've never seen a pic of an R after a roll, but it can't be pretty.

 

[PobodY]

I liked the idea until I read a thread on here from 2007. - The gist was: If you don't have a cage then a harness is actually a liability; you can't mount it correctly, and in the event of a roll-over it will ensure your head and the roof meet. If it's an impact, but not a roll-over you'll get a compressed spine because the harness is pulling you down instead of back.
If you do have a cage, then a harness (and a helment) is a nessicity; it stops you connecting with the cage with every bump (and obviously the helmet stops you getting injured when you do connect with it).
There was also a suggestion that a half-cage is the optimum set-up for a fast-road/track car; you can have a harness bar in that, but it doesn't pose the same problems when you're on the road.

Having said that, it occurs to me that a simple harness will stop me rolling around in my seat, and I'd only be using it on the track (although am I more likely to have an accident there than off it?). - Thus my question(s) and confusion.

 

[stevepudney]

best setup i found for the road was a good aftermarket seat set so your bum is as low as possible and standard belts, seat holds you tight. Handling of the car obviously doesn't physically change but because your held tight in the seat and not being thrown around it gives the impression of the best and cheapest handling mod you've ever done lol

fit a quality after market seat (or two) and use standard belts on the road, but also fit a harness bar so you can fit harness for track use.

 

[PobodY]

That could work Steve. - As long as you don't butcher the mounts, the seat could always come back out. If that stops me falling out of the seat during cornering with the standard seat belt, then that's all I need really.

 

[pulsarboby]

im now in a similar state with my new track / road car

im using 2 x bucket seats but sacrificing safety for weight so wont be bothering to fit a rollcage as il never get the chance to race the car as i initially had planned some years back.
in a nutshell to your question
dont fit harnesses if your not using a cage as you will be supported by the seats, im gonna use stock seatbelts.
if you should have a bad crash (god forbid) or roll the car at least its not gonna remove your head from your neck which you have a fair chance of by wearing harnesses in an uncaged beancan, as youll be able to at least duck down to a lower level instead of being pinned upright in your seat.

 

[skiddusmarkus]

The problem I have had with bucket seats is I am 6'2" and they put the seat too high.Once I have a helmet on my head is touching the roof.I have the cusco type 6 point cage which means I also cannot look right too.So I have ended up buying some used corbeau recliners which are higher than the OE ones but lower than a bucket.This is just about doable for me.I've kept the standard seatbelts with them even though I've got some spanking harnesses to fit.

 

[MarkTurbo]

I liked the idea until I read a thread on here from 2007. - The gist was: If you don't have a cage then a harness is actually a liability; you can't mount it correctly, and in the event of a roll-over it will ensure your head and the roof meet. If it's an impact, but not a roll-over you'll get a compressed spine because the harness is pulling you down instead of back.

I wouldn't use a harness thats mounted behind the seat on a seat that didn't have a fixed back for the reason above about compressing you down in the event of an impact (although i'm guilty of doing it in the past ) I'm using FIA approved 4 point harnesses and seats and it all meets the requirements of the Msa bluebook. I know theres an increased risk of injury due to not having a cage and being held upright in the seats in the event of an accident but on the other side of that if i did fit a cage you don't drive around on the road wearing a helmet so then you've got increased risk of a head injury. Sometimes you've just got to accept risks, if you didn't you'd never leave the house :lol:

This is worth a read too ;-)

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191416

My set up.

 

[stevepudney]

I wouldn't use a harness thats mounted behind the seat on a seat that didn't have a fixed back for the reason above about compressing you down in the event of an impact (although i'm guilty of doing it in the past ) I'm using FIA approved 4 point harnesses and seats and it all meets the requirements of the Msa bluebook. I know theres an increased risk of injury due to not having a cage and being held upright in the seats in the event of an accident but on the other side of that if i did fit a cage you don't drive around on the road wearing a helmet so then you've got increased risk of a head injury. Sometimes you've just got to accept risks, if you didn't you'd never leave the house :lol:

This is worth a read too ;-)

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191416

My set up.

Whats the box under the pedals for Mark, you got short feet ?

 

[PobodY]

That is interesting; seems the FIA give you a lot more variability on the angles than some of the manufacturers do. - Either way, it sounds like a better seat is my first point of call... then if I still think I need to be held down I might investigate the harness.
Your pictures are the kind of set-up I envisaged Mark.

Alternatively I could just accept that I'm not super track-day boy, and just use a normal seat and belt. - The big boys are always going to loose me on the corners anyway because I don't know what I'm doing... although acknowledging that I don't know what I'm doing is what got me thinking about safety in the first place. :shock:

 

[MarkTurbo]

Forgot to say I've heard those cg locks are good. When you do trackdays with the standard seats and 3 point belts you'll slide around in the seat on corners and end up using the steering wheel as something to hold onto instead of just steering the car so anything you can do to keep your arse in the seat will help ;-)

Whats the box under the pedals for Mark, you got short feet ?

That's my next modification, I'm going to wedge it under the brake pedal to make me faster :shock:

 

[PobodY]

That's my next modification, I'm going to wedge it under the brake pedal to make me faster :shock:

I've got a tennis ball that does that.

 

[warpspeed]

I had my harnesses like this originally but was told by a scrutineer at Mallory Park that they should cross over between the seats and the mounts

 

[bob the builder]

hi george, dont bother with harness just get a nice bucket seat.
thats all i had in mine,and even with slicks on it was more than comfortable when cornering.
better off puting you money into handling and braking mods, or even just a set of wheels with slicks on.

 

[fubar andy]

or even just a set of wheels with slicks on.

Just to note, most tracks have a policy that you must have a cage when running slicks (not sure how enforced that it at some circuits)

 

[campbellju]

When you do trackdays with the standard seats and 3 point belts you'll slide around in the seat on corners and end up using the steering wheel as something to hold onto instead of just steering the car so anything you can do to keep your arse in the seat will help ;-)

I was going to say the same thing. I remember my first track day in the R and the steering wheel was the only thing stopping me fall out of my seat.

George, I've got a simple clip in harness you can borrow if you like, you do them up tight and it'll stop you failing out as much. Unless I pull my finger out you could even borrow a seat! No doubt normal seat belts are better for the road, harnesses are a liability at junctions let alone crashes. A good seat makes a big difference. On track though I think it depends on your brakes. A good harness helps you focus on the driving so every time you brake hard you don't keep getting thrown forward a few inches.

 

[PobodY]

I had my harnesses like this originally but was told by a scrutineer at Mallory Park that they should cross over between the seats and the mounts

That link Mark posted suggests that it's not an FIA nor MSA requirement, but like the angle it's one of those things the manufacturer(s) recommends.

Jim, thanks for the offer. - As it stands I'm really just trying to do the research; plus if I buy bits now then that's less money to spend in August.
You know how it is... you get on eBay and the buying frenzy starts; before you know it you've bought all sorts of rubbish you don't really need.

 

[MarkTurbo]

I had my harnesses like this originally but was told by a scrutineer at Mallory Park that they should cross over between the seats and the mounts

My car has been checked by numerous Msa scrutineers since I started racing it and its never been mentioned so they can stay as they are ;-)

 

[PobodY]

As a quick update, I won an eBay auction for a Willians 4-point snap-in harness. - It's evidently designed for use with "standard" seats because it's got the extra buckle to allow you to split it and let people into the back. I had a bit of a test fit, and I doubt it's perfect, but it does stop me flopping around in the seat.

I dutifully went-out and bought some 7/16" UNF harness eye-bolts and set about putting them into existing seatbelt mounting points... but that's where the problems start again. - I've got one of the rear mounting points changed (and it sits nicely under the read seat, so I'm pleased you can't notice it's there). The one that's behind the rear trim panel, I just can't shift; what's the best way to get that undone, find someone with an impact gun?

Also, because Jim so graciously offered to lend me his seat, I looked at taking mine out... only to find that one of the captive nuts seems to have broken loose. :doh:
Any tips for getting the bolt free; I'd prefer not to have to cut into my floor pan to get at the back of it? - I've got maybe 1-2mm of free play, so it's hard to get anything other than the head of a screwdriver under it.
I'm not sure what I'll do once it's out, but I'm very tempted to drill through, put one of those backing plates under the car, and use one of my spare seatbelt bolts.

Absolutely worst-case scenario: I give-up on trying to get the seat out, use the harness as-is, and if I crash I accept that I'm going to hurt myself... there's no side-intrusion bars nor air bags anyway. :shock: