Suspension, handling info not RNN14 Dedicated but really nice to read!

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bracpan

Active Member
"O and another thing there are three differant types of tien as well".

Not any more there arnt...

I have seen a car jack itself down through over stiff damping and the Pulsar never did on standard Teins, many run them turned up way to far for normal road use... they are not perfect but a lot better than a lot of the other over stiff crap that some are selling, some of the spring rates are laughable. I fitted stronger springs yes but some makes are way higher than I used. The big problem is the lack of very good coilovers like Ohlins etc but then you would be paying a lot more, so you pays your money and takes your choise.

As I said springs and dampers are only a small part, a Pulser like any other car running Mcpherson struts will never be perfect as the damn things bind on heavy load, and you have no real control of Camber in roll, Plus there is to much weight on the nose of the car.
Then if you start looking at roll centers and how they move around, camber change, caster, squat, dive, scrub radius, centre of gravity, bump steer, and proper worked out spring rates taking into acount the weight of the car minus all the unsprung weight etc etc etc its a mine field especially if you still have any kind of bushes in your suppension as they all move as well.
If the car is for the road go for the Whiteline stuff and setup its been well looked into and works. If its car competition you have to start with the type or tyres you run and the kind of event your doing, track racing is different than rally is different to Hill Climbs is different to Drag racing..then dont forget it can all change if its wet !!
Have fun and thats whats its all about...fun.
If Ferrari and Mclaren cant get it right what it hope do we have ?
 
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R

RO_SUNNY

Active Member
But chaps (red reading and bracpan) please do share with us some setups for the Track and also what shall we buy (springs, shocks, bushes...etc) in order to improve the ''driveability'' of the GtiR.
 
M

Makaveli_se7en

Member
bracpan said:
The big problem is the lack of very good coilovers like Ohlins etc but then you would be paying a lot more, so you pays your money and takes your choise.
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This is not strictly true, I have quotes from Ohlins, KW and Intrax, all of which are happy to make coilovers to order for the GTiR, the problem is they are asking 4 times what most people are prepared to pay for a set BC's
 
Nick K

Nick K

Member
red reading said:
There ok if you take time to set it up properly and learn what suits the car best, I found taking 20mm from stock rear and 30mm from the front in ride height was about right and minimum damping on the front and two up on the back works for me on the road , but this is dependant on loads of other things.
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F@ck me! Only wanted some basic info on coilover set up and its turned into "who is the master of the suspension universe"..... Anyways. As I'm a limited in my suspension knowledge and are more interested in getting the pulsar on the road can anybody advice " not going to hold you to it" on camber and tow. Running F1 tyres on 17"s . Normal road use. Love you all x x x
 
KieranEG6

KieranEG6

Member
Makaveli_se7en said:
This is not strictly true, I have quotes from Ohlins, KW and Intrax, all of which are happy to make coilovers to order for the GTiR, the problem is they are asking 4 times what most people are prepared to pay for a set BC's
Click to expand...
But are they going to be 4x as good as a set of BCs.

Is hard to justify the cost of a set of coilovers at such prices near the value of the actual car when there are so many other variables that can make your car handle like a turd.

To me BCs seem to fit the bill for vast majority. I can choose my spring rates, set damping to somewhere im comfortable with, set height and camber. The rest will be in setting up and keeping geometry where I want it, bushes etc then tyres choices. So I may have reduced my compression travel to 1-1.5" but with 6/5kg spring I can't see that being all to bad.
 
N

nickr

New Member
KieranEG6 said:
But are they going to be 4x as good as a set of BCs.

Is hard to justify the cost of a set of coilovers at such prices near the value of the actual car when there are so many other variables that can make your car handle like a turd.

To me BCs seem to fit the bill for vast majority. I can choose my spring rates, set damping to somewhere im comfortable with, set height and camber. The rest will be in setting up and keeping geometry where I want it, bushes etc then tyres choices. So I may have reduced my compression travel to 1-1.5" but with 6/5kg spring I can't see that being all to bad.
Click to expand...
I think they are worth 4 x the price
The BC racing have poor damping
Almost no low speed damping and too much high speed damping implying linear rather than digressive valving
Only rebound control and the 30 odd clicks might as well be 3 settings as there's hardly any difference
lack of travel is another huge issue as you literally have about an inch
However they're well constructed and seem to handle abuse
I made my own custom setup for about 3k USD which are about 3x the price With custom housings ground control sleeves double adjustable advance design struts ground control top hats with camber caster adjustability with 9kg front 11kg rear and 4kg helpers in the rear and progressive koni bump stops

I can say that these ride better than my old BC racing on a 7kg 6kg in town on bumps and far far far better in competition.

The low speed damping is set quite high but blows off for a digressive setup meaning I have good response little roll but can still hit bumps and not be earth shattering

The BC racing with no low speed damping roll heavily and are slow to respond as the strut just is so mushy through the weight transfer phase of handling
 
red reading

red reading

Active Member
Nick K said:
F@ck me! Only wanted some basic info on coilover set up and its turned into "who is the master of the suspension universe"..... Anyways. As I'm a limited in my suspension knowledge and are more interested in getting the pulsar on the road can anybody advice " not going to hold you to it" on camber and tow. Running F1 tyres on 17"s . Normal road use. Love you all x x x
Click to expand...
1.5 degree camber front, 1 degree rear, smidge of toe in front and rear to make the car stable at speed, whiteline rear arb on middle setting if you have one and tyre pressures of 32psi front and 28psi rear, that works for me on the road....

track is a diff matter all together and I don't run anything like the above settings.
 
red reading

red reading

Active Member
nickr said:
I think they are worth 4 x the price
The BC racing have poor damping
Almost no low speed damping and too much high speed damping implying linear rather than digressive valving
Only rebound control and the 30 odd clicks might as well be 3 settings as there's hardly any difference
lack of travel is another huge issue as you literally have about an inch
However they're well constructed and seem to handle abuse
I made my own custom setup for about 3k USD which are about 3x the price With custom housings ground control sleeves double adjustable advance design struts ground control top hats with camber caster adjustability with 9kg front 11kg rear and 4kg helpers in the rear and progressive koni bump stops

I can say that these ride better than my old BC racing on a 7kg 6kg in town on bumps and far far far better in competition.

The low speed damping is set quite high but blows off for a digressive setup meaning I have good response little roll but can still hit bumps and not be earth shattering

The BC racing with no low speed damping roll heavily and are slow to respond as the strut just is so mushy through the weight transfer phase of handling
Click to expand...
agree with this and that's the state of play with all the cheap coilovers,
 
red reading

red reading

Active Member
bracpan said:
"O and another thing there are three differant types of tien as well".

Not any more there arnt...

I have seen a car jack itself down through over stiff damping and the Pulsar never did on standard Teins, many run them turned up way to far for normal road use... they are not perfect but a lot better than a lot of the other over stiff crap that some are selling, some of the spring rates are laughable. I fitted stronger springs yes but some makes are way higher than I used. The big problem is the lack of very good coilovers like Ohlins etc but then you would be paying a lot more, so you pays your money and takes your choise.

As I said springs and dampers are only a small part, a Pulser like any other car running Mcpherson struts will never be perfect as the damn things bind on heavy load, and you have no real control of Camber in roll, Plus there is to much weight on the nose of the car.
Then if you start looking at roll centers and how they move around, camber change, caster, squat, dive, scrub radius, centre of gravity, bump steer, and proper worked out spring rates taking into acount the weight of the car minus all the unsprung weight etc etc etc its a mine field especially if you still have any kind of bushes in your suppension as they all move as well.
If the car is for the road go for the Whiteline stuff and setup its been well looked into and works. If its car competition you have to start with the type or tyres you run and the kind of event your doing, track racing is different than rally is different to Hill Climbs is different to Drag racing..then dont forget it can all change if its wet !!
Have fun and thats whats its all about...fun.
If Ferrari and Mclaren cant get it right what it hope do we have ?
Click to expand...
tein super street, tein ha and tein Australia/Asia market are all differant Phil and I think they are still available ( part numbers are still coming up) ,agree with all you say it's horses for courses and the whitline stuff is brilliant for the road ( basically Koni dampers and decent springs) , I have got a set of proflex to go on the rally car to try and am at present about to fit the nismo kyb coilovers to see what they are like ( will get the spring rates checked on them as they are stiff yet very complient ) to the other car.
 
red reading

red reading

Active Member
nickr said:
I think they are worth 4 x the price
The BC racing have poor damping
Almost no low speed damping and too much high speed damping implying linear rather than digressive valving
Only rebound control and the 30 odd clicks might as well be 3 settings as there's hardly any difference
lack of travel is another huge issue as you literally have about an inch
However they're well constructed and seem to handle abuse
I made my own custom setup for about 3k USD which are about 3x the price With custom housings ground control sleeves double adjustable advance design struts ground control top hats with camber caster adjustability with 9kg front 11kg rear and 4kg helpers in the rear and progressive koni bump stops

I can say that these ride better than my old BC racing on a 7kg 6kg in town on bumps and far far far better in competition.

The low speed damping is set quite high but blows off for a digressive setup meaning I have good response little roll but can still hit bumps and not be earth shattering

The BC racing with no low speed damping roll heavily and are slow to respond as the strut just is so mushy through the weight transfer phase of handling
Click to expand...

Your competition is slalom events?
 
N

nickr

New Member
Yah cone type events . I dont usually use the pulsar as its classed poorly and its always in the lag portion of the power band at the speeds I corner at. But I destroy all but the top drivers in miatas civics and s2000s. Stis and evos r far far far behind mainly kuz of weight. However I am faster in a civic miata and s2000 as well. I'd need a fairly big powerboost and 245 width r comps to be competitive after time multiplier. Here's a video on 195 width tires. Nick - 57.8: Nick - 57.8 - YouTube

I have a roll centre correction ball joint coming to compliment my bump steer kit. My bumpsteer kit is mounted underneath rather than above its resulted in more Ackerman but I dont mind. Took a day to get used to it. I have a fair amount of toe change hopefully the ball joint cures that
 
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red reading

red reading

Active Member
If you have not changed the hubs how has fitting the bump steer kit affected the Ackerman angle? The gti hubs may be of more benefit to you in this case.
 
N

nickr

New Member
The ball joint angle to the mounting point of the tie rod end has changed since the mounting point has changed.
 
red reading

red reading

Active Member
Ok, so you have changed the hub carrier some how to change the Ackerman point , correct me if I am wrong but I have always taken Ackerman angle as being a line from the centre of the steering swivel, thru the centre of the track rod end to the centre line of the rear wheels, I can't see how changing the track rod end from the top of the hub carrier to the bottom will change the Ackerman ...bump steer yes.
 
Nick K

Nick K

Member
red reading said:
1.5 degree camber front, 1 degree rear, smidge of toe in front and rear to make the car stable at speed, whiteline rear arb on middle setting if you have one and tyre pressures of 32psi front and 28psi rear, that works for me on the road....

track is a diff matter all together and I don't run anything like the above settings.
Click to expand...
Top man. Thank you
 
PobodY

PobodY

Moderators
Staff member
I was running 0'00" toe-in on mine, but having talked to Campbellju about it I might reassess that. - The problem is that it's a bit of a simplistic set-up and when you change or adjust one component the settings change with it.

I think that I had too much play in the front axle (a combination of ball joints, hub nuts and wheel bearings) so that the suspension settings on an unladen car were wrong as soon as it had some weight on it and things splayed.

Currently I've got the Whiteline rear ARB (non-adjustable) and have fiddled enough that mine tends to oversteer rather than understeer. - It hadn't done it for a while, and I don't try to get sideways if I can help it, but just the other day the back stepped-out coming around the corner when it was cold and wet (rather than just ploughing into the kerb like it used to).
Other than the ARB I've got what were labelled as Nismo struts, and that's about it.
 
red reading

red reading

Active Member
nickr said:
So I see Ackerman like this http://i.imgur.com/rEKtKu1.jpg

I now have my tie rod end mounted like this http://www.b15u.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41463&d=1357751837

That slight change in angle of the centre point of the tie rod end

Maybe I've got it wrong but I'll have a long shank ball joint installed soon to match that picture
Click to expand...

looking at at that picture your tie rod (track rod end) is the yellow line in the above picture, so moving it above or below the hub carrier end is not changing the Ackerman angle, it is changing the bump steer which I find interesting as I was talking to a clever suspension man and he worked out to pretty much eliminate the bumpsteer in our cars the joint needed to be near on inline with the hub carrier mount, what effect have you found with doing that modification?
 
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